Mal Educaion - Bullying

<font color="limegreen">I have tried to collect all the "bullying" posts from "Mal Education - System Design - Should Be VS Is" together here.
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<font color="pink">Posted - 14 Sep 2013 : 10:35:04 by [shando]</font id="pink">

Regarding the bullying behaviour that seems to plague our school systems, it occurs to me that we are just thinking animals and what we call bullying is just the process of juveniles finding their places in the social milieu they find themselves in, duplicating what other mammals do - eg: establishing the pecking order in poultry flocks.

See for example "Teen Pecking Order Linked To Bullying": www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/216081.php

If this is the major cause of bullying behaviour then corrective efforts that assume other causes, are doomed to failure. Further, if indeed, this is the root cause, bullying behaviour probably cannot be avoided - it is built into our human genes.

My conclusion is that our efforts should be directed toward making the process into a structured ritual that is safe for adolescents to participate in.
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<font color="pink">Posted - 15 Sep 2013 : 15:06:36 by [LB]</font id="pink">

[shando] "See for example "Teen Pecking Order Linked To Bullying": www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/216081.php

[LB] Having lived through the process, I've always thought it would be more appropriate to call it the peckering order.

Another personal note - it is possible to not participate, because I took that route. As a consequence the amount of teasing and bullying I had to put up with was tiny compared to many of my peers. Almost non existent. But you have to be prepared to entertain yourself for this strategy to succeed. If you NEED friends to survive, you will also have enemies.

Of course once you are out of High School everything changes. No more bullies (to a first approximation at least). Friends are fairly easy to find. Even girl friends.

College, even publicly funded, is much less monopoly organized than the precursors. So the dysfunctions that plague the numbered grades is reduced.

[shando] If this is the major cause of bullying behavior then corrective efforts that assume other causes, are doomed to failure. Further, if indeed, this is the root cause, bullying behavior probably cannot be avoided - it is built into our human genes."

[LB] Observe the behavior of animals. Bullying is common, so it seems your 'built into the genes' theory holds some water. But we are different from other animals. We don't just think, we 'higher' think. By this I mean we think about concepts such as rights and justice as well as stuff like food and sex. Other animals pretty much just think about stuff like food and sex.

Some of us are able to resist the 'built in' urge to bully others. (By exercising our ability to higher think?) I could have knocked that smaller kid down and taken his candy. But I didn't because I knew it was wrong. Why? Because if a bigger kid did it to me (and she did once or twice) it would OBVIOUSLY be wrong, and I just generalized.

So bullying behavior can be avoided. But it takes some specific educating since some of us are not able to work it out by ourselves. And as long as the politicians are in control of the education system, useful training like that is not going to happen (it might solve a problem).

[shando] "My conclusion is that our efforts should be directed toward making the process into a structured ritual that is safe for adolescents to participate in."

[LB] It is amazing that we can run along in such close agreement for so long, and then suddenly be so much at odds.

Such a structured ritual is exactly what we have now, and it is the thing I have been railing against for nearly forty years. (And for the last page or so, as well.)

It must be totally destroyed. Ripped out by the roots.

***

Or, maybe we just need to make it voluntary? (That is the Big Thing about real monopolies that makes them bad. They can force you to do business with them. Take away that power and they are not a problem.)

If I want to send my kids to the local politician controlled school, I should be able to. But I should not be able to FORCE you to pay for my kids place in that school.

Power to the people. For real.

LB

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<font color="pink">Posted - 15 Sep 2013 : 15:19:54 by [LB]</font id="pink">
Oh - that structured ritual we have now is also far less safe than it should be. If anyone besides politicians were in charge, it would be.

<font color="pink">Posted - 16 Sep 2013 : 16:51:38 by [LB]</font id="pink">
To All,

That Pecking Order study shando linked above is kind of interesting. I recommend it. I could start another thread to discuss it. (Or you could.)

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<font color="pink">Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 23:02:55 by [shando]</font id="pink">

LB: Such a structured ritual is exactly what we have now ...

Hmmm ... somehow, that is not what I perceive nor is it what I had in mind when I suggested it. That explains why "we can run along in such close agreement for so long, and then suddenly be so much at odds." Obviously, I did not explain my concept well enough.

LB: We don't just think, we 'higher' think. By this I mean we think about concepts such as rights and justice as well as stuff like food and sex. Other animals pretty much just think about stuff like food and sex.

I understand what you are saying and agree that with well developed cogitative functioning we think about concepts involving rights and justice, but adolescents generally do not have very well developed cogitative faculties. I don't think they understand that their bullying behaviour is rooted in their compulsion to discover their place in the social milieu.

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<font color="pink">Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 11:13:14 by [LB]</font id="pink">
[shando] "Hmmm ... somehow, that is not what I perceive nor is it what I had in mind when I suggested it."

Yeah, I kind of figured that was going to raise your eyebrows a foot or two.

Accurate communication is ridiculously difficult. The corollary is that miscommunication is easy, and we often do not realize it is happening because it is so common and we just imagine this is the normal state. After all, I know what I mean when I use the word 'hemmalfarb'. It's right there in the Obscure Dictionary, definition 5c. How can anyone else NOT understand what I'm saying? (English is probably the most flexible language in existence, and that means it is also the most difficult to use correctly.)

I'm amazed that we (mankind) manage to make any progress.

Lately, it seems we've been having trouble.

Perhaps if you take another stab at explaining your idea ...

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<font color="pink">Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 12:36:47 by [LB]</font id="pink">

[LB] "We don't just think, we 'higher' think."

[shando] "... but adolescents generally do not have very well developed cogitative faculties"

Good point. They spend a lot more time thinking like the other animals (about sex and food) than like many adult humans (about sex food and justice).

Some individuals never really grow up in this regard.

PART of the reason for this is an uber-structured, one size fits all educational system that is little more than a babysitter (that does not care about the kids). Babysitting is OK if it is a side effect of serious education, but not if it becomes the main reason many parents value the system.

[shando]I don't think they understand that their bullying behavior is rooted in their compulsion to discover their place in the social milieu.

A 'compulsion to discover their place in the social milieu' is too recent to be anything but a learned social convention. The roots of bullying go back to our single celled ancestors. Without the ability to 'higher think' an organism is stuck with 'regular think' - or worse, with instinct. That means kill or be killed in many situations.

Those of us that use 'higher think' all the time (probably much less than a quarter of all human beings) operate on what might be called The Platinum Rule. (Treat others like they want to be treated.)

Those of us that can use 'higher think' but often don't (partly because we were never taught its value - and this group is probably more than half of all human beings) tend to operate on what might be called The Golden Rule (Treat others the way you want them to treat you.)

Those of us that rarely if ever use 'higher think' - and all of the non humans because they can't use higher think - tend to operate on what might be called The Brass Rule (TrEAT others any way you want to treat them.)

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<font color="pink">Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 17:11:48 by [KeLP]</font id="pink">

LB,

Re: . . . The Platinum Rule. (Treat others like they want to be treated.)

You might want to re-think that phrasing. I want to be treated as a god; start sending all your money, feeding and clothing me, building my pyramids.

Maybe a little problem there?

A better Platinum Rule would be a Golden Rule phrased as Christian Pastor Dr. Gene Scott always claimed it should be read (in my wording, not his):

(Do not treat others in a way you would not want to be treated.)

Ken

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<font color="pink">Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 20:56:22 by [LB]</font id="pink">

That's a great observation Ken, and it highlights my point about the difficulty of accurate communication. So, how do I pull my bacon out of the fire? In fact, can I?

My motivation for formulating a Platinum Rule in the first place was my observation that the Golden Rule has an obvious (once you see it) defect. The best way I've found to demonstrate it is with the example of a masochist. Using the 'Biblical' wording instead of mine above, the masochist is ordered by the Golden Rule to 'DO unto others' as she would have them do unto her. You can immediately see how this leads her to inflict harm on others.

Of course, it might be possible to interpret the Golden Rule as less of an order to 'get going right now, in this way' and more of a guideline for how to proceed at those times when you do chose to interact with another person. BTW, that is kind of the vein in which I imagined that my Platinum Rule would be taken.

But that does not negate the validity of your observation. It might mitigate it a bit, however.

One more point - your suggested rewording does prevent someone from interpreting the rule as an order. But it does not prevent them from interpreting it as giving permission. And when God says it's OK, some will do it even if it is wrong.

***

So - I agree that my wording of the Platinum Rule needs to be improved. And I agree that your wording of the Golden Rule is superior to the traditional wording (or to my wording, which I allege is equivalent in meaning).

I notice that your wording begins with "Do not ..." rather than with "Do ..."

I have a feeling that this is important.

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<font color="pink">Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 21:12:50 by [LB]</font id="pink">

[KeLP] "The more you learn, the less you know ..."

I'm not so sure this is true in general, but when the subject is Right vs. Wrong or Good vs. Evil I can get on board.

I don't want to know anything."

So, you want to learn everything.

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<font color="pink">Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 09:10:27 by [shando]</font id="pink">

LB: Accurate communication is ridiculously difficult.
You can say that again!
"Accurate communication is ridiculously difficult."

[shando] "My conclusion is that our efforts should be directed toward making the process into a structured ritual that is safe for adolescents to participate in."

When I posted this, I was thinking about the root cause of bullying behaviour: the "process" of finding one's place in the tribe's pecking order. I infer that you thought I was talking about making the "hyper education" system into a "structured ritual". Now I think I understand your reaction.

The keyboard on my computer is randomly skipping characters when I type. This makes it very painful to compose responses. When the new computer arrives, I hope to follow up on the above postings.

Also, I think we need another thread: Mal Education - bullying.

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<font color="pink">Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 12:04:08 by [LB]</font id="pink">

That's a good suggestion. It will happen soon.

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<font color="pink">Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 14:45:37 by [Jim]</font id="pink">

What about the golden advice: get the board out of your eye before doing remodeling?

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<font color="pink">Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 17:13:02 by [LB]</font id="pink">

[KeLP] "Re: . . . The Platinum Rule. (Treat others like they want to be treated.)

You might want to re-think that phrasing."

Proposed re-wording: 'Do not treat others differently than they want to be treated'.

My intent:It does not command me to treat you at all. But if I do must not violate your wishes.
You want to be treated as a god. If I interface with you at all, I must treat you as a god. So I chose to not interface with you. I'm not NOT treating you as anything, including a god.

Hmm. As long as I am at liberty to ignore you, I think this will work.

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<font color="pink">Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 19:46:42 by [KeLP]</font id="pink">

But I want to not be ignored, and I want your liberty dependent on me.

You are in violation, as you are treating me differently than I want.

LB,

Your Platinum Rule put the onus of how to act upon the recipient; it is his way of wanting to be treated that is dominent. Instead of a masochist, think sadist.

The "Do not. . ." is important. It restricts my actions, thereby granting you more liberty. There is nothing there that should be interpreted as a requirement to fulfill, only to restrain from doing. Yes, religious zealots will say that gives license for anything not proscribed, but religious zealots always find an excuse.

Our Bill of Rights and Constitution are similarly documents of "negative liberty", restricting the Federal government. For the same reason: it maximizes the liberty of the states and individuals if the Feds are restrained. Well, they used to be, anyway.

You are right that the Golden Rule seems to have a defect; eg. the mascochist. But much of that defect comes from it being seen in a non-religious context. The Rule presupposes the follower is a practictioner of the Judeo-Christian religion. It was given in the Sermon on the Mount to the Disciples, not the multitudes. The words were not directed to the secular world.
For believers, the 10 commandments are mostly a list of negatives (thou shalt nots). And there are also the statutes and ordinances that Moses gave. The practictioner is therefore restrained, theoretically, from commiting a host of evils if he applies the "Do unto. . ." language.
Although, since a masochist sees pleasure in pain, he might not view any of the above as relevant.

This doesn't invalidate your point that most people operate under the Golden Rule as popularly understood. And as such, it fits well in your triad of Rules.
I'm sure an improved phrasing of the Platinum is possible, but I'm equally sure it will require a "Do not. . ." formulation.

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<font color="pink">Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 20:42:10 by [LB]</font id="pink">

[KeLP] "But I want to not be ignored, and I want your liberty dependent on me."

D*mn, spoken like an actual god. Or (pardon my French) a p*l*t*c**n.

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<font color="pink">Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 21:05:55 by [KeLP]</font id="pink">

LB,

Think of it this way:

Golden Rule: I like ice cream, therefore you must get ice cream.

Platinum Rule: I like ice cream, but you may not, so I won't force ice cream upon you.

The restraint has to be placed on the actor, without reference to the wants of the recipient, else the recipient is imposed upon. It matters not whether the imposition is enjoyable or harmful. Maximum liberty is obtained only when there is no imposition. And isn't that what "higher thinkers" are doing, imposing as little as possible, especially negatively and unnecessarily, on others? They don't bully because they don't pre-judge how others think and feel.

Maybe "Do not assume how others want to be treated."?

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<font color="pink">Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 21:17:46 by [LB]</font id="pink">

You know - this is so WAY OFF TOPIC (here in this thread) it isn't even funny.

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<font color="pink">Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 22:51:45 by [Shando]</font id="pink">

The Platinum Rule requires me to infer what you like/want - a critical defect, because I probably do not know what that is.

The Golden Rule does not require this knowledge - I only need to know what I want/like.

Therefore IMO the GR is preferable.

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<font color="pink">Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 23:23:34 [LB]</font id="pink">

[shando] "The Platinum Rule requires me to infer what you like/want"

That is the hard way (because you will probably get it wrong, no matter how much research you do.)

Actually, all you have to do is ask me.

***

But most of us use the Golden Rule, because it allows us to avoid the 'awful' task of finding out what other people in our lives desire, and simply assume that all others want what we want. And that is so much easier. And, a lot of the time it is close to being true.

But when it is not, we should not incarcerate or kill the 'odd ball'.

We don't have a moral obligation to 'accept' them. But we do have a moral obligation to 'tolerate' them.

In my opinion.

THERE AREN'T ENOUGH OF THEM TO HARM MANKIND!
THEY HAVE THEIR OWN PROBLEMS.
LEAVE THEM ALONE!

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<font color="pink">Posted - 20 Sep 2013 : 15:33:54 by [shando]</font id="pink">

[shando] "The Platinum Rule requires me to infer what you like/want"

LB:That is the hard way (because you will probably get it wrong, no matter how much research you do.)

Actually, all you have to do is ask me.

Hmmm ... that might work, unless:

1. you don't know what you want from me.
2. you won't tell me.
3. you don't know that you don't know what you want from me.
4. what you want is not what you need from me.
5. you are incapacitated and cannot speak.
6. I don't want you to know that I intend to "treat" you.
7. etc.

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<font color="pink">Posted - 20 Sep 2013 : 18:20:28 by [LB]</font id="pink">

If I'm that much of a basket case, you will probably should just walk away and ignore me. If you do not treat me at all, then you are not treating me contrary to my wishes.

(thanks for the good work)

(I went into your collection post and color highlighted the 'posted' lines. IMO, it makes reading much easier.)

Sorry for not asking if it was OK - it is easier to get forgiveness than permission ...

To all,

I've just noticed that as shando cut-and-pasted stuff from other threads for his collection post, some of the HTML tagged edits were lost.

For example, the last post in his collection post is from me.

In the first sentence after the comma, I said "... you will probably should just walk away ..."

As you can see above, the HTML edit for the strike-thru line in the words 'will probably' was deleted.

Moral of the story, go back to the original post in the original thread to be sure you understand what was said.

(Unless shando or I can manage enough GAS to fix all of the edit goofs that might exist. Yeah, right.)

shando,

Were all of these posts in your collection post from one thread? The posted line ought to say where it originally appeared. So the readers can go back and see it in the original context.

And ... a note ought to be added to that original post, pointing to your collection post.

And ... that pointer ought to be color highlighted.

Not too bad, really - set it up once, then just lots of cut and paste.

(No good deed goes unpunished ...)

Thank you.

LB