Paradoxes Resolved, Origins Illuminated - Stephen hawking "revamps" black hole theory
Paradoxes Resolved, Origins Illuminated
Paradoxes Resolved, Origins Illuminated
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emanuel

USA
151 Posts

Posted - 21 Jul 2004 :  13:51:25  Show Profile  Visit emanuel's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi everyone,

Is this a swidget happening?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/07/21/hawking.blackholes.ap/index.html

Emanuel

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Meta

102 Posts

Posted - 21 Jul 2004 :  14:13:12  Show Profile  Visit Meta's Homepage  Reply with Quote
tsk, tsk, he should have known better.
What goes into a hole must come out as something else.

Meta
rgrace@rgrace.org

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Don Omni

USA
67 Posts

Posted - 21 Jul 2004 :  15:31:17  Show Profile  Send Don Omni an AOL message  Send Don Omni a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
It's cause a 'black hole' isn't black or a hole. It's a big enough dying star that's Lorentz contracted to a point (or a sphere fractal). When John Wheeler changed the term 'frozen star' to black hole then everyone starts thinking a hole as in a tunnel like it's going somewhere.

Even astrophysics defines a singularity as a POINT in space/time where gravitational forces cause matter to have infinite density and infinitesimal volume, and space and time to become infinitely distorted.

Although the accretion disc surrounding a sphere fractal singularity could loosely be considered a torus fractal hole but then you'd have to call the whole Milky Way a torus fractal hole centered about the sphere fractal singularity at the heart of our galaxy. The point is the term 'black hole' is just another misnomer that's been around since 1969 that's generally been misleading everyone into thinking a singularity actually goes somewhere, which Hawking is finally realizing isn't the case at all.

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EBTX

232 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2004 :  01:58:30  Show Profile  Visit EBTX's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I do not understand the bet Hawking has conceded because I do not know what current physics means by the term "information". From what I gather, they believe that nature somehow is cognizant of secondary information, i.e. words in a printed book (qua "words").

As I see it, the universe "knows" about gravitational, electrical potentials and such but takes no notice of what we might call "information". It takes no notice of us at all (as human beings). It notes only our physical presence as in our body mass, etc.

This is why we get erased after 70 years or so. We are nothing to inanimate matter except as inanimate matter. Hence, the idea of information these people are talking about is inscrutable to me.

Does anyone understand what they are talking about? I am ready to be enlightened ;o)


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Jan

Netherlands
287 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2004 :  04:13:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Does anyone understand what they are talking about?


Nope, not a word.


But the MM would seem to have a straight answer: the universe was never created and lasts forever, it is truly omnipotent. Thus, information in "unrecognisable" or "mangled" form still exists, that's all that counts. No matter how many black holes you throw at it, black holes cannot be an excuse for destruction.
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Skarp

Christmas Island
135 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2004 :  08:32:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From what I could gather - This is his speech. Darned if I can figer what he's saying. Glad I'm not him ..... cuz then I'd have to understand what I'm saying. :-)

quote:

I want to report that I think I have solved, a major problem in
theoretical physics, that has been around since I discovered that
black holes radiate thermally, thirty years ago. The question is, is
information lost in black hole evaporation. If it is, the evolution is
not unitary, and pure quantum states, decay into mixed states.

I'm grateful to my graduate student Christophe Galfard for help in
preparing this talk.

The black hole information paradox, started in 1967, when Werner
Israel showed that the Schwarzschild metric, was the only static
vacuum black hole solution. This was then generalized to the no hair
theorem, the only stationary rotating black hole solutions of the
Einstein Maxwell equations, are the Kerr Newman metrics. The no hair
theorem implied that all information about the collapsing body, was
lost from the outside region, apart from three conserved quantities,
the mass, the angular momentum, and the electric charge.

This loss of information wasn't a problem in the classical theory. A
classical black hole would last for ever, and the information could be
thought of as preserved inside it, but just not very
accessible. However, the situation changed when I discovered that
quantum effects would cause a black hole, to radiate at a steady
rate. At least in the approximation I was using, the radiation from
the black hole would be completely thermal, and would carry no
information. So what would happen to all that information locked
inside a black hole, that evaporated away, and disappeared
completely. It seemed the only way the information could come out,
would be if the radiation was not exactly thermal, but had subtle
correlations. No one has found a mechanism to produce correlations,
but most physicists believe one must exist. If information were lost
in black holes, pure quantum states would decay into mixed states, and
quantum gravity wouldn't be unitary.


I first raised the question of information loss in 75, and the
argument continued for years, without any resolution either
way. Finally, it was claimed that the issue was settled in favour of
conservation of information, by ADS, CFT. ADS, CFT, is a conjectured
duality between supergravity in anti de Sitter space, and a conformal
field theory on the boundary of anti de Sitter space, at
infinity. Since the conformal field theory is manifestly unitary, the
argument is that supergravity must be information preserving. Any
information that falls in a black hole in anti de Sitter space, must
come out again. But it still wasn't clear, how information could get
out of a black hole. It is this question, I will address.

Black hole formation and evaporation, can be thought of as a
scattering process. One sends in particles and radiation from
infinity, and measures what comes back out to infinity. All
measurements are made at infinity, where fields are weak, and one
never probes the strong field region in the middle. So one can't be
sure a black hole forms, no matter how certain it might be in
classical theory. I shall show that this possibility, allows
information to be preserved, and to be returned to infinity.

I adopt the Euclidean approach, the only sane way to do quantum
gravity non-perturbative. In this, the time evolution of an initial
state, is given by a Path integral over all positive definite metrics,
that go between two surfaces, that are a distance T apart at
infinity. One then Wick rotates the time interval, T, to the
Lorentzian.

The path integral is taken over metrics of all possible topologies,
that fit in between the surfaces. There is the trivial topology, the
initial surface, cross the time interval. Then there are the non
trivial topologies, all the other possible topologies. The trivial
topology can be foliated by a family of surfaces of constant time. The
path integral over all metrics with trivial topology, can be treated
canonically by time slicing. In other words, the time evolution
(including gravity) will be generated by a Hamiltonian. This will give
a unitary mapping from the initial surface, to the final.

The non trivial topologies, can not be foliated by a family of
surfaces of constant time. There will be a fixed point in any time
evolution vector field on a non trivial topology. A fixed point in the
Euclidean regime, corresponds to a horizon in the Lorentzian. A small
change in the state on the initial surface, would propagate as a
linear wave, on the background of each metric in the path integral. If
the background contained a horizon, the wave would fall through it,
and would decay exponentially at late time, outside the horizon. For
example, correlation functions decay exponentially in black hole
metrics. This means the path integral over all topologically
non-trivial metrics, will be independent of the state on the initial
surface. It will not add to the amplitude to go from initial state to
final, that comes from the path integral over all topologically
trivial metrics. So the mapping from initial to final states, given by
the path integral over all metrics, will be unitary. One might
question the use in this argument, of the concept of a quantum state
for the gravitational field, on an initial or final space like
surface. This would be a functional of the geometries of space like
surfaces, which is not something that can be measured in weak fields
near infinity. One can measure the weak gravitational fields, on a
time like tube around the system, but the caps at top and bottom, go
through the interior of the system, where the fields may be strong.

One way of getting rid of the difficulties of caps, would be to join
the final surface back to the initial surface, and integrate over all
spatial geometries of the join. If this was an identification under a
Lorentzian time interval, T, at infinity, it would introduce closed
time like curves. But if the interval at infinity is the Euclidean
distance, beta, the path integral gives the partition function for
gravity at temperature, one over beta.

The partition function of a system, is the trace over all states,
weighted with e to the minus beta H. One can then integrate beta along
a contour parallel to the imaginary axis, with the factor, e to the
beta E0. This projects out the states with energy, E0. In a
gravitational collapse and evaporation, one is interested in states of
definite energy, rather than states of definite temperature.

There is an infrared problem with this idea for asymptotically flat
space. The Euclidean path integral with period beta, is the partition
function for space at temperature, one over beta. The partition
function is infinite, because the volume of space is infinite. This
infrared problem can be solved by a small negative cosmological
constant. It will not affect the evaporation of a small black hole,
but it will change infinity to anti de Sitter space, and make the
thermal partition function finite.

The boundary at infinity is then a torus, S1, cross S2. The trivial
topology, periodically identified anti de Sitter space, fills in the
torus, but so also do non-trivial topologies, the best known of which
is Schwarzschild anti de Sitter. Providing that the temperature is
small compared to the Hawking Page temperature, The path integral over
all topologically trivial metrics, represents self gravitating
radiation, in asymptotically anti de Sitter space. The path integral
over all metrics of Schwarzschild ADS topology, represents a black
hole and thermal radiation, in asymptotically anti de Sitter.

The boundary at infinity has topology, S1 cross S2. The simplest
topology that fits inside that boundary, is the trivial topology, S1
cross D3, the three disk. The next simplest topology, and the first
non-trivial topology, is S2 cross D2. This is the topology of the
Schwarzschild anti de Sitter metric. There are other possible
topologies that fit inside the boundary, but these two are the
important cases, topologically trivial metrics, and the black
hole. The black hole is eternal. It can not become topologically
trivial at late times.

In view of this, one can understand why information is preserved in
topologically trivial metrics, but exponentially decays in
topologically non trivial metrics. A final state of empty space
without a black hole, would be topologically trivial, and be foliated
by surfaces of constant time. These would form a three cycle, modulo
the boundary at infinity. Any global symmetry, would lead to
conserved global charges on that three cycle. These would prevent
correlation functions from decaying exponentially in topologically
trivial metrics. Indeed, one can regard the unitary Hamiltonian
evolution, of a topologically trivial metric, as the conservation of
information through a three cycle.

On the other hand, a non trivial topology, like a black hole, will not
have a final three cycle. It will not therefore have any conserved
quantity, that will prevent correlation functions from exponentially
decaying. One is thus led to the remarkable result, that late time
amplitudes of the path integral over a topologically non trivial
metric, are independent of the initial state. This was noticed by
Maldacena in the case of asymptotically anti de Sitter3, and
interpreted as implying that information is lost in the BTZ black hole
metric. Maldacena was able to show that topologically trivial metrics,
have correlation functions that do not decay, and have amplitudes of
the right order to be compatible with a unitary evolution. Maldacena
did not realize however, that it follows from a canonical treatment,
that the evolution of a topologically trivial metric, will be unitary.

So in the end, everyone was right, in a way. Information is lost in
topologically non trivial metrics, like the eternal black hole. On the
other hand, information is preserved in topologically trivial
metrics. The confusion and paradox arose because people thought
classically, in terms of a single topology for spacetime. It was
either R4, or a black hole. But the Feynman sum over histories, allows
it to be both at once. One can not tell which topology contributed the
observation, any more than one can tell which slit the electron went
through, in the two slits experiment. All that observation at infinity
can determine, is that there is a unitary mapping from initial states,
to final, and that information is not lost.

My work with Hartle, showed the Radiation could be thought of as
tunnelling out from inside the black hole. It was therefore not
unreasonable to suppose that it could carry information out of the
black hole. This explains how a black hole can form, and then give
out the information about what is inside it, while remaining
topologically trivial. There is no baby universe branching off, as I
once thought. The information remains firmly in our universe. I'm
sorry to disappoint science fiction fans, but if information is
preserved, there is no possibility of using black holes to travel to
other universes. If you jump into a black hole, your mass energy will
be returned to our universe, but in a mangled form, which contains the
information about what you were like, but in an unrecognisable state.

There is a problem describing what happens, because Strictly speaking,
the only observables in quantum gravity, are the values of the field
at infinity. One can not define the field at some point in the middle,
because there is quantum uncertainty in where the measurement is
done. However, in cases in which there are a large number, N, of light
matter fields, coupled to gravity, one can neglect the gravitational
fluctuations, because they are only one among N quantum loops. One can
then do the path integral over all matter fields, in a given metric,
to obtain the effective action, which will be a functional of the
metric.

One can add the classical Einstein Hilbert action of the metric, to
this quantum effective action of the matter fields. If one integrated
this combined action over all metrics, one would obtain the full
quantum theory. However, the semi-classical approximation, is to
represent the integral over metrics, by its saddle point. This will
obey the Einstein equations, where the source is the expectation value
of the energy momentum tensor, of the matter fields in their vacuum
state.

The only way to calculate the effective action of the matter fields,
used to be perturbation theory. This is not likely to work in the case
of gravitational collapse. However, fortunately we now have a
non-perturbative method, in ADS CFT. The Maldacena conjecture, says
that the effective action of a CFT on a background metric, is equal to
the supergravity effective action, of anti de Sitter space with that
background metric at infinity. In the large N limit, the supergravity
effective action, is just the classical action. Thus the calculation
of the quantum effective action of the matter fields, is equivalent to
solving the classical Einstein equations.

The action of an anti de Sitter like space, with a boundary at
infinity, would be infinite, so one has to regularize. One introduces
subtractions that depend only on the metric of the boundary.

The first counter term is proportional to the volume of the boundary.

The second counter term is proportional to the Einstein Hilbert action
of the boundary.

There is a third counter term, but it is not covariantly defined.

One now adds the Einstein Hilbert action of the boundary, and looks
for a saddle point of the total action. This will involve solving the
coupled four and five dimensional Einstein equations. It will probably
have to be done numerically.



In this talk, I have argued that quantum gravity is unitary, and
information is preserved in black hole formation and evaporation. I
assume the evolution is given by a Euclidean path integral over
metrics of all topologies. The integral over topologically trivial
metrics, can be done by dividing the time interval into thin slices,
and using a linear interpolation to the metric in each slice. The
integral over each slice, will be unitary, and so the whole path
integral will be unitary.

On the other hand, the path integral over topologically non trivial
metrics, will lose information, and will be asymptotically independent
of its initial conditions. Thus the total path integral will be
unitary, and quantum mechanics is safe.

It is great to solve a problem that has been troubling me for nearly
thirty years, even though the answer is less exciting than the
alternative I suggested. This result is not all negative however,
because it indicates that a black hole evaporates, while remaining
topologically trivial. However, the large N solution is likely to be a
black hole that shrinks to zero. This is what I suggested in 1975.

In 1997, Kip Thorne and I, bet John Preskill, that information was
lost in black holes. The loser or losers of the bet, are to provide
the winner or winners with an encyclopaedia of their own choice, from
which information can be recovered with ease. I'm now ready to concede
the bet, but Kip Thorne isn't convinced just yet. I will give John
Preskill the encyclopaedia he has requested. John is all American, so
naturally he wants an encyclopaedia of baseball. I had great
difficulty in finding one over here, so I offered him an encyclopaedia
of cricket, as an alternative, but John wouldn't be persuaded of the
superiority of cricket. Fortunately, my assistant, Andrew Dunn,
persuaded the publishers Sportclassic Books, to fly a copy of Total
Baseball, The Ultimate Baseball Encyclopedia to Dublin. I will give
John the encyclopaedia now. If Kip agrees to concede the bet later, he
can pay me back.


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Jim

1607 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2004 :  11:17:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As to the question of what they are talking about it seems to me much like the talk of the 10th century. The topic is about theology then and theology now. The BB model needs to invent stuff like blackholes in order to survive and then explain the details of the invented item. What should be done is to find out why a blackhole (or whatever you want to call them) are needed. I think this nedd is due to the fact stellar physics needs a dump site for all the crap it generates.
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Larry Burford

USA
1355 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2004 :  12:11:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks, Jim - that was a good one.
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Don Omni

USA
67 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2004 :  12:17:47  Show Profile  Send Don Omni an AOL message  Send Don Omni a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
I have to agree with Jan howev I prefer to call the universe 'omninfinite' or forever outwards and eternally inwards simultaneously with no beginning or ending.

When Hawking says that after someone 'jumps' into a black hole that they're mass energy is returned to our universe in a mangled state he doesn't describe that process simply enough. Does he mean that the 21 grams that instantly leaves the body upon death is returned to the universe in some form of a soul? And if this is in effect coming out of a black hole is it not going faster than the speed of light using the speed of G or the speed of K or accelerating via F/m=c^2/d or does he just mean the stolen momentum of photon and virtual photon interaction above the event horizon he postulated so long ago?

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Don Omni

USA
67 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2004 :  12:49:55  Show Profile  Send Don Omni an AOL message  Send Don Omni a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
And Jim you're absolutely right all these black holes have been doing is sucking up all the stellar physics crap for more than half a century now. I hate to sound vile and degrading but Hawking himself would qualify as the mangled matter that returned from a black hole.

Actually the generalized horizon event radius=m+(m^2-q^2-s/m^2)^.5 when subbed back into F_her=Gm^2/[m+(m^2-q^2-s/m^2)^.5]^2 is F_her=Gm^2/m^2+m^2-q^2-s/m^2 so if the lower denominated mass reciprocates (due to mass attraction)where all the masses cancel F_her=G/-q^2-s which totally fleshed out looks like F_her=G=-q^2-s which isn't the typical gravity we've come to know religiously through the classics and relativity.

What G=-q^2-s is saying is that a graviton emits negative charge from its north and south nodes in order to repel the locally flat negative curvature simultaneously attracting the nonlocally curved 'void' while subtracting itself from the spin of the immediate curvature source. In simple terms what this means is levitation. I hate to use a Hollywild example but remember in the Matrix when you see their hovercraft have discs all over them that seem to emit electricity, this is what I'm talking about. If the locally flat parts of earth are considered negative curvature and the void is considered to be positive curvature then constructing a craft that emits negative charge will levitate subtracting itself from the spin of the earth as the equation G=-q^2-s dictates.

I mean gravity is obviously a downward force if you're standing anywhere on the face of the earth locally but if you're in a space ship looking at the earth objectively nonlocally then gravity is pushing down from the north and up from the south. Newton's 3rd Law would say for gravitational action there's an equal gravitational reaction (downward) and an opposite gravitational reaction (upward) which G=-q^2-s is explaining how gravity is a downward and upward phenomena. I realize this 'model' isn't in anyway complete but that single equation has already enormously helped me on the lab bench over the years.

And that's just about the only thing I can mangle away from black hole mechanics, Jim. I mean unless black holes err sphere fractal singularities actually turned out to be some form of 'neutroniom' metal that if it could somehow be siphoned off and processed from the singularity itself it would make a virtually indestructible form of craft or whatev.

.......................Omni
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rousejohnny

USA
220 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2004 :  13:59:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Don Omni


When Hawking says that after someone 'jumps' into a black hole that they're mass energy is returned to our universe in a mangled state he doesn't describe that process simply enough. Does he mean that the 21 grams that instantly leaves the body upon death is returned to the universe in some form of a soul?




Even if this information did escape, what is preventing it from interfacing with other matter and in effect maturing back into real quantum particles and falling right back into the BH. I think as it escapes, with the declining force of gravity, it could and would reevolve into regular matter....or recognizable matter on our scale. But I am not sure how mangled it is or why he choose to use such a description. As for the form of a soul, any idea of an energy field can be interpreted as a soul....but it is purely subjective.
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Don Omni

USA
67 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2004 :  14:04:29  Show Profile  Send Don Omni an AOL message  Send Don Omni a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah that's what I'm talkin about, he doesn't describe the process thouroughly enough in simple terms.
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Jim

1607 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2004 :  20:10:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Omni, My opinion on the matter of blackholes is they are bogus events that are required to make the model work. No math required.

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Don Omni

USA
67 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 :  01:16:53  Show Profile  Send Don Omni an AOL message  Send Don Omni a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Absolutely gyeah, Jim, cause I don't like Wheeler's black holes. The singularity cone at the center of the galaxy could be c^2>c cause light speed can't escape the pull of light speed squared. A mangled mass energy accretion wave is the E/m Milky Way where locally the E is a conceptually abstract entity and the m is the mass of the earth or nonlocally E is the earth and m is the mass of a humant standing on her. The c^2 singularity cone is in essence passing everywhere each second assuming c^2 as the propagation rate for one second which is akin to the paintbrush and E/m is the painting itself. And we paint in consciousness which my man Sarfatti thinks he's quantified.

Because there's 'something' at the center of the galaxy doing 'something' err spewing 'something' all about space/time.

You wanna talk about some hardcore black hole drivel in science fiction it's a dark neutroniom star planet where all the fallen whiny elohim boys pin the galaxy down and won't let the true nature of the elysium come out to play.

(Unless you count the fact elysium's probably already everywhen anyway.)

Vigorously I believe I was more specifically referring to the cause of levitation of a vacuumotor craft. G=-q^2-s is G=(-E^2/F^2)-s so GF=(-E^2/F)-s thus 6.672x10^-11E^2/m^2=(-E^2/F)-s or 6.672x10^-11c^4=-Ed-s which is a another measurment for a different propagation rate of gravilight a vacuumotor craft could take. In electromagnetic terms -+-=+ neutralized the xyz (pastpresentfuture) dimension with the t (synchronicity) dimension which is what Hawking meant in the White House when he said time travel is possible a few cycles back. Rigorously we're all vacuumotor space/time travellers through memory imagination dreams omninfinitely on the gravilight canvas of creation. We're temporal echoes intended through space and spatial reflections extended through time.

To use a word like 'mangled' means Hawking just has a cynical low self esteem outlook which is rightly his choice (not that he came out his momma's black hole lookin like that), or maybe he simply has no idea what he's talking about, or the one I'm betting my vacuumotor dictionary on...he's just playin with us cause he also knows the USA and most of the world has outlawed free energy perptual motion devices through the Malthusian influence of those plausibly deniable High Influence Menipulators.

In black hole sci fi drivel the HIM would be the descended elohim holding the grudge against the elysium that won't show itself yet. When the HIM is in fact the elysium holding itself back perpetuating the collective apathy of the top species as a whole (Err Wheeler would say a black hole.)

Classical G=Fd^2/m^2, Relative G_E/c=8piT_mc, Quantum G>\/=hc/16pi^2m^2, and em -q^2-s=G which are the four forms of gravity I find most useful when making a flightruck, aircar, or vacuumotoracer.

Seeriously, "No taxation with corrupt representation." And don't take any carp from the swine.

..........................................Omni

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Jim

1607 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 :  11:17:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Omni, You touched a point that I have been pondering for a while about the structure of the center of galaxies. As you may know it is my opinion the center of any mass is more or less empty as you say. So, what puzzles me is why the center is so bright in all frequencys of EMF. Do you know the flux of the center of galaixes relative to the flux of the disk? And is the frequency and or spectrum about the same? I comments about how a guy looks are very childish and if I had a kid that talked like that-

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Don Omni

USA
67 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 :  18:47:28  Show Profile  Send Don Omni an AOL message  Send Don Omni a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Oh right it's so horrible to talk about a flip floppers looks while our army's slaughtering sinnocent sheople all over the world in the name of free speech. If I had a kid like you I'd sit you straight down on the lab bench and show you how a vacuumotor worketh so you'd stop whining about politically correct carp tact concerning your girly model. And yeah I know stuff about hypervirtual flux frequency spectrums. Hawking or whoev chose the word mangled and I happen to make positive and negative connections and equal and opposite reactions to imaginary junk I hear or read about and since I'm still only saying about 20% of what I could using near 5% of the math to do it I have to use it to get you goin somehow kid err Jim.
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Meta

102 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2004 :  14:00:32  Show Profile  Visit Meta's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Scarp,

There is no such thing as a blackhole.
It's a light hole.
Every micro, bio and macro structure has a two-lighthole-tori structure.

Every lighthole-outside tears mass apart until it becomes light, which lighthole-inside, spirals through the center and becomes a lighthole-outside again. Inside, outside...two halves of a torus with two lightholes.

Rip it up.

Meta
rgrace@rgrace.org
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Serviccing synonymic tuberization kerbstone composer scorify? Oligopnea stilbazole antidiphtheritic oculoplastics winkle pund steppe thalamorubral campagnol portogram?

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