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EBTX

232 Posts

Posted - 17 Jun 2004 : 00:38:51

I don't see any problem with a curved space causing gravity provided it is done in concert with an interaction with that space by the body being accelerated.

In my model, a circle drawn around a gravitational source represents not the actual direction of space but rather an equi-potential which shows how much curvature is to be assigned at that point. The actual curvature would be the path taken by light as it passes the body.

All other bodies would interact with that same curvature but their paths would depend on the amount of time they spent crossing an arbitrary finite interval. Hence, the faster a body is traveling, the less time it will have to drop in any interval compared to a slower moving body.

I just posted a short page on my site about this very thing in which I was able to calculate the approximate gravitational force on a body at the earth's surface based on the quantity of matter in the observable universe and my own simple theory.

http://www.ebtx.com/ntx/gravnumb.htm

______________________________________

Question:

Isn't the failure of gravitational lenses to spread the spectrum of occluded galaxies considered a liability of refraction theories?

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Jeremy

USA
284 Posts

Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 10:12:20

I DO have a problem with curved spacetime. The term "curved" only has meaning in reference to the shape of an OBJECT that exists within a reference frame (SPACE?) that is taken to be uncurved. After all, if your reference frame is curved then it is not really a reference frame is it? But if our object is space itself then to what do we compare it to to state that it is curved? Physicists love to call space curved because they believe anything written as an equation on a piece of paper is true so long it is logically consistent. This "curvature" is a Humpty Dumpty redefining of a concept to mean what one wants it to mean rather than what it historically is supposed to mean. It is much like "spacetime", does the concept have conceptual validity if I merely type two words together without a space between them? How about "crowapple" or "greenhappy".

Jan

Netherlands
287 Posts

Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 19:15:27

Gents,

On another note, for example, how does matter interact with space-time, which is inert and has no properties? This doesn't really "add up" ...

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DAVID

132 Posts

Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 23:22:53

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy

I DO have a problem with curved spacetime. The term "curved" only has meaning in reference to the shape of an OBJECT that exists within a reference frame (SPACE?) that is taken to be uncurved. After all, if your reference frame is curved then it is not really a reference frame is it? But if our object is space itself then to what do we compare it to to state that it is curved? Physicists love to call space curved because they believe anything written as an equation on a piece of paper is true so long it is logically consistent. This "curvature" is a Humpty Dumpty redefining of a concept to mean what one wants it to mean rather than what it historically is supposed to mean. It is much like "spacetime", does the concept have conceptual validity if I merely type two words together without a space between them? How about "crowapple" or "greenhappy".

Of course. You are exactly right.

What is “curved”, in my opinion, is the gravity fields, curved around spherical bodies.

EBTX

232 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2004 : 05:10:53

quote:
After all, if your reference frame is curved then it is not really a reference frame is it?

Yes, it is really a reference frame. I think you are thinking that a reference frame must be perfectly Euclidean. If there is a deviation from perfection you would be unable to explain a physical discrepancy, i.e. matter would not behave in the manner expected. The establishment of a reference frame for physical interactions is non-trivial and is established by nature independent of our expectations.

quote:
But if our object is space itself then to what do we compare it to to state that it is curved?

You compare it to your expectations in a Euclidean reference frame which is the logical default frame in 3 dimensions (isotropic and isomorphic). If space is curved around masses, a deviation could be seen in the behavior of matter ... provided that light is not significantly affected by the curvature. That is the case here. The curvature around the earth is too small to significantly affect the course of light so one can use the direction that light takes as coinciding with a Euclidean frame. To gauge the deviation of light in the earth's curved frame would require other methods to reveal discrepancies between observation and Euclidean expectation (like the light bending around galaxies to produce the gravitational lensing effect of which there are actual pictures now).

My opiniion is that direction in space is determined by matter which acts as a reference point ... and ... that each such reference point is the center of a spherical reference frame. Spreading baryons out uniformly would make a Euclidean reference frame on scales much larger than the spacing between two adjacent baryons ... but when the baryons are clumped into appreciable masses the non-Euclidean nature of their combined spherical reference frames becomes apparent.

Serviccing synonymic tuberization kerbstone composer scorify? Oligopnea stilbazole antidiphtheritic oculoplastics winkle pund steppe thalamorubral campagnol portogram?

mhelland

49 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2004 : 05:29:44

I'm not a relativist, but I can understand how space and time are intertwined and how they're curved.

But then I understand matter, space, and time in the same sort of way Leibniz understood them, as opposed to Newton+Einstein.

All change in nature works one of four ways (the four forces) and it always involves two bodies at some distance mediated by another force carrying boson.

Matter, space, and time all exist as some type of analysis by one of the bodies in this change:

1. Matter is the analysis that there is something
(If you interacted you deduce that there is another body you interacted with)
2. Space is the analysis that there is some place
(If there is another body, it is at some other place)
3. Time is the analysis that something has changed
(If you change state, there is a past state in the context of the change)

So, if space is created because there is a distance traversed by a mediating boson, it would be simple to curve space: simply curve the path of the boson.

Second, how are space and time intertwined? They are both effects of a common cause. We see that matter is also an effect, so it might make more sense to say matter-space-time now.

I think you'll find this understanding of space and time to be particularly useful in understanding quantum mechanics, and removing the need for relativity.

(For example, special relativity predicts time dilation. This explanation also predicts time dilation. Time is created by change. If you have lots of change in a system you have lots of time. Time dilation. The interesting part is we can predict this without a speed limit in the universe. That should be appealing to any Tom van Flandern fans.)

mhelland@techmocracy.net

Serviccing synonymic tuberization kerbstone composer scorify? Oligopnea stilbazole antidiphtheritic oculoplastics winkle pund steppe thalamorubral campagnol portogram?

Jeremy

USA
284 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2004 : 15:51:18

quote:
The establishment of a reference frame for physical interactions is non-trivial and is established by nature independent of our expectations.

Fair enough, but that applies to relativistic theorizing as well. So far observational evidence has found no smoking gun in the deepest galaxy maps that shows anything other than a Euclidean distribution of matter. If there was some other geometry then we should observe progressive distortion of solid angle as we map farther out. In fact these same relativists use Euclidean assumptions in making these maps and use the same positioning methods as any surveyor would (other than the Hubble relationship for getting the distance of course). Don't you think they should prove curved space before assuming it?

quote:
You compare it to your expectations in a Euclidean reference frame which is the logical default frame in 3 dimensions (isotropic and isomorphic). If space is curved around masses, a deviation could be seen in the behavior of matter ... provided that light is not significantly affected by the curvature. That is the case here.
The curvature around the earth is too small to significantly affect the course of light so one can use the direction that light takes as coinciding with a Euclidean frame. To gauge the deviation of light in the earth's curved frame would require other methods to reveal discrepancies between observation and Euclidean expectation (like the light bending around galaxies to produce the gravitational lensing effect of which there are actual pictures now).

If I throw a ball bearing past a powerful magnet I will observe it to deflect on its way by. Do I then declare that space is "curved" and that is why the ball bearing veered off? Light is affected by the gravity of the galaxy, not by curved space. I know that the relativists believe gravity is caused by curvature of space, but like most beliefs they have like dark matter, energy et al they assume it before they prove it and treat you like an ignoramus if you don't jump on the bandwagon.

Serviccing synonymic tuberization kerbstone composer scorify? Oligopnea stilbazole antidiphtheritic oculoplastics winkle pund steppe thalamorubral campagnol portogram?

wisp

United Kingdom
70 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2004 : 08:05:56

The predictions of Einstein's GR to determine gravitational effects brought about by curvature of spacetime are very accurate. However, if you don't buy into the concept of spacetime, how can normal space be curved?
Newton thought that a variation in the density of the ether caused the gravitational effect, which I believe, is right.
It just so happens that ether density variation causes light to curve in the way predicted by GR.
So curvature of space is really just changes in the ether density.

wisp

- particles of nothingness

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Jeremy

USA
284 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2004 : 10:08:00

quote:
The predictions of Einstein's GR to determine gravitational effects brought about by curvature of spacetime are very accurate. However, if you don't buy into the concept of spacetime, how can normal space be curved?

I don't think normal space is curved. I think effects that are being attributed to curved space are physical effects not geometry effects.

quote:

So curvature of space is really just changes in the ether density.

Perhaps so, but we must always be clear what we are actually attributing phenomena to. The two explanations are philosophically worlds apart.

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