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KoenigMKII

United Kingdom
42 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2004 : 15:53:41

Here is a link to a web site that has all the info on the recently launched NASA satellite. Surprisingly enough, the scientists responsible seem not have to have forgotten the scientific mehod, and have an open mind on the results.

http://einstein.stanford.edu/

The obvious question for TVF is is "what does the Meta Model predict for the outcome of the experiment??"

tvanflandern

USA
2793 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2004 : 16:39:26

quote:
Originally posted by KoenigMKII

Surprisingly enough, the scientists responsible seem not have to have forgotten the scientific mehod, and have an open mind on the results.

What you call "not forgetting the scientific method", I would call "dodging the scientific method". Dr. Everett, the PI on the experiment, refuses to make any prediction for this experiment. Apparently, the team will wait and see what develops, then explain it with GR and announce another triumph for GR regardless of what the result is.

quote:
The obvious question for TVF is is "what does the Meta Model predict for the outcome of the experiment??"

Until orbital elements and gyro specifics are released, MM cannot make specific predictions. Hopefully, that will be remedied after the one-month initialization and testing period. -|Tom|-

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Astrodelugeologist

120 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 00:41:03

So if the data is in agreement with General Relativity, relativists claim it as a success, and if it isn't, they construct an ad hoc hypothesis and claim it as a success anyway?

That's not scientific at all.

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Jan

Netherlands
287 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 03:16:31

Tom,

I've given this frame dragging a little thought. Suppose we do observe a disalignment of the gyros of gravity probe B, could this be a result of elysium dragging instead of the alleged frame dragging scenario?

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KoenigMKII

United Kingdom
42 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 10:29:13

Tom, Polar orbit at 400 miles high is a faily quick orbit, if the gryros are as sensitive as claimed, won't GP-B detect the instantaneous position of Sun, Moon, Jupiter, Saturn, Venus, Mars etc, rather than the light-time delayed ones, if MM is correct?

The GR bridgade have a "get-out-of-jail-free-card" ready for this.. or do they?

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tvanflandern

USA
2793 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 10:50:04

quote:
Originally posted by Jan

I've given this frame dragging a little thought. Suppose we do observe a disalignment of the gyros of gravity probe B, could this be a result of elysium dragging instead of the alleged frame dragging scenario?

Yes, frame dragging is a sort of elysium-dragging phenomenon. It arises because Earth's rotation drags inertial frames or elysium with the "solid" Earth somewhat, producing an extra precession.

I think that GR expects the inertial frame to be dragged with Earth's rotation at full speed. But it is difficult to find experts who will commit on that point. MM expects much less elysium dragging than GR probably does. And in MM, the precession mechanism is just the torque applied to the pendulums by elysium "rotational spin". However, it will be very difficult to assure that other unforeseen effects will not invalidate the interpretation of any result seen. -|Tom|-

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tvanflandern

USA
2793 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 10:57:25

quote:
Originally posted by KoenigMKII

won't GP-B detect the instantaneous position of Sun, Moon, Jupiter, Saturn, Venus, Mars etc, rather than the light-time delayed ones, if MM is correct?

No. The full tugs of the planets are already almost negligible except over long time periods, so the tiny differences between instantaneous and delayed tugs would be even more negligible. And that is standard dynamics, having nothing to do with MM. Although "geometric" GR does not interpret instantaneous gravity as a propagation faster than light, it does recognize that gravitational force cannot be modeled with a light-speed delay and still get valid orbits. -|Tom|-

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Meta

102 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 11:21:57

Gravity Probe B
http://www.rgrace.org/126/145gravframe.html

The reality of space, mass and falling elevators is that frame dragging and geodetic precession is caused by the intrinsic spiraling of space itself first, not matter. The reality of space, mass and falling elevators is that spiraling space causes the earth and all other planets and moons to spin and precess within the even larger spiraling field of the sun. The reality of space, mass and falling elevators is that Einstein is precise and has his relativity precisely backwards or his followers do, yet, Gravity Probe B will confirm that the perfectly backward, earth-referenced results are in perfect accord with the perfectly backward, earth-referenced Relativity.

But none of Relativity's earth-referenced spin and twist or Gravity Probe B's results are reality. It is space that is the source of first spin and IS both "charge" and "gravity".

Meta
rgrace@rgrace.org
Impossible Correspondence
http://www.rgrace.org/index.html

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KoenigMKII

United Kingdom
42 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 11:42:12

quote:
Originally posted by tvanflandern

quote:
Originally posted by KoenigMKII

won't GP-B detect the instantaneous position of Sun, Moon, Jupiter, Saturn, Venus, Mars etc, rather than the light-time delayed ones, if MM is correct?
No. The full tugs of the planets are already almost negligible except over long time periods, so the tiny differences between instantaneous and delayed tugs would be even more negligible. And that is standard dynamics, having nothing to do with MM. Although "geometric" GR does not interpret instantaneous gravity as a propagation faster than light, it does recognize that gravitational force cannot be modeled with a light-speed delay and still get valid orbits. -|Tom|-

I don't quite understand. If the Satellite is changing its position wrt Moon, the Satellite would be seeing over 1 Second in light time delay for a gravity signal (if no information can travel faster than light). In 1 second a 400 mile polar orbit satellite can travel a good distance. How can that difference be negligible for a satellite that is sensitive enough to detect "frame dragging"?

OK I can agree that the NASA team will use Einstein's equations that have infinite speed gravity plugged into them, so the instruments will not be set up to show the difference.

But the satellite does get FTL information (Moons postion) and if it were calibrated with light time delayed gravity, it would show a FTL gravity signal... ??

Sorry if I am making a total fool of myself.. but something is bothering me about this.

north

Canada
518 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 12:01:41

KoenigMKII

in my view they won't detect the instaneous position of the Sun or other planets.

why? because they measuring the SPIN of astronomical bodies and seeing it's effects.notice that in jets coming from some galaxies,these jets are at the poles,now since every mass spins and that the spin for each mass varies the ability to produce visable jets also varies.(it is also dependent on the acceleration and volume)so that actually each spining mass has this same action,yet is unseen.

following this,which by the way is a hydrdynamic point of view,this means that at the Earths poles there is a slight jet action which may block any influence the Sun or planets may have.since also they have jet action but not in the direction of the earths poles.

more latter!!

any comments people!!?

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north

Canada
518 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 22:02:03

further,also there is the influence of the position at the equatorial of all Suns,planets etc. which reach out into the surrounding space.this influence(an example of which for instance that can be seen,rings around Neptune,Uranus etc.)if we start from the equatorial of the Sun moving then out,this influence then starts an interference pattern(a little like ripples in a large pond but with the ripples all differing in size,depth and reach of influence but together has become a steady overall pattern) with Mercury,Venus then Earth,Mars and so on.now these might cause, because of the complex patterns that evolve along with the vertical depth of the patterns might,possible, over come the effects of,what i think is only a slight jet action at the poles of the Earth.also you have the equatorial patterns that are coming in from Pluto,Uranus(interesting twist here!!) Neptune etc.

it will be curious to see what they find happens!!