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Rudolf

South Africa
153 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 03:43:18

A recent article at http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/integral_gamma_040318.html describe how two studies that looked into radiation fog and *proof* of dark matter.

These people still don't get it. What does Tom think of these findings?

tvanflandern

USA
2793 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 07:41:34

quote:
Originally posted by Rudolf

What does Tom think of these findings?

A matter-antimatter "fountain" operating toward the Galactic center has been known for a generation. Attempts to interpret this in terms of "dark matter" are necessarily weak because no one knows what properties dark matter has, including existence. -|Tom|-

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Rudolf

South Africa
153 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 08:55:44

Are there any other indications that 'stuff' like dark matter can exist (outside the galaxy rotation problem)?
Obviously there could be a lot of plain dark normal matter that is not visible as well.

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tvanflandern

USA
2793 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 09:33:40

quote:
Originally posted by Rudolf

Are there any other indications that 'stuff' like dark matter can exist (outside the galaxy rotation problem)? Obviously there could be a lot of plain dark normal matter that is not visible as well.

Even before the rotation problem was known, we had problems accounting for all the mass needed to bind galaxy clusters together. The same for superclusters. The larger the scale, the greater the discrepancy between seen and unseen matter (assuming the Newtonian law is still in effect).

Normally, to hide matter, it needs to be as clumped and compact as possible. However, if the mass is big enough to make stars, then thermonuclear fusion creates radiation that makes the mass visible. But if the mass is broken into tiny bits such as gas and dust, that is easily seen as absorption lines in all light passing through it.

So theory has focused on the two mass zones where detection would be hardest: MACHOs and WIMPs. MACHOs (Massive Compact Halo Objects) are planet-sized objects that would be hard to see directly. They have been searched for by looking for gravitational lens effects in the Large and Small Magellanic Clouds. Such objects between here and there would be detected by lensing stars in the two satellite galaxies. But there were not enough of them by far to explain the missing dark matter. WIMPs are Weakly Interacting Massive Particles -- presumably some as-yet-undiscovered quantum particle with mass and enough abundance to make a difference. Again, searches have been mostly fruitless, or at least insufficient to convince astronomers that the dark matter problem is nearing a solution.

The most succssful hypothesis so far is MOND or Modified Newtonian Dynamics, which hypothesizes a minimum acceleration -- a deviation from the Newtonian law of gravity. That explains dynamics without dark matter. It has been robust in its ability to explain phenomena, even ones not known when the hypothesis was formulated. But it has not gained much acceptance because (1) it would undermine the Big Bang; and (2) it is ad hoc, lacking a good physical justification.

MM offers an alternate interpretation and physical justification for a MOND-like mechanism. However, as MM has been further developed lately, it has become increasingly apparent that elysium plays a greater role in galaxy dynamics than I have heretofore appreciated. When I have time, I plan a complete rethink of large scale forces from first principles. -|Tom|-

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Jeremy

USA
284 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 10:04:43

Tom, I was wondering, I know that the galactic rotation curves are correlated with the luminosity of the galaxy. I believe it is the inner bend of the curve that becomes sharper as luminosity increases? Is there any correlation with the shape of the galaxy i.e. do spheroidal shaped galaxies have a more newtonian curve than a flat spiral galaxy?

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tvanflandern

USA
2793 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 10:36:17

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy

Is there any correlation with the shape of the galaxy i.e. do spheroidal shaped galaxies have a more newtonian curve than a flat spiral galaxy?

Milgrom recently showed that dwarf spheroidal galaxies also obey the MOND acceleration limit. However, an even newer study of a few elliptical galaxies suggested that these may have little or no "dark matter", meaning that the rotation curves do not bend over and flatten out so sharply.

This is one reason why I think that elysium plays a greater role than I have heretofore appreciated in galaxy dynamics. -|Tom|-

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Jim

1607 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 11:51:15

One of the big problems in ever understanding the dymamics of structure in gravity fields is the misplaced gravity center that is common to all the ideas about spheres and disks. There is no center of gravity even though it is very accurate to assume this is a fact when we are outside. When we are inside the mass is all around and so is the gravity so you cannot assume the Center of Gravity is located at any point as, say, the Center of Mass.

Rudolf

South Africa
153 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 13:37:08

quote:
Tom - When I have time, I plan a complete rethink of large scale forces from first principles

Does this imply that there may be 'other' forces at work at these large scales? If the MM holds true then the same should apply to the other end of the scale - extremely small scales where there might also be forces that we currently don't know or understand.

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tvanflandern

USA
2793 Posts

Posted - 20 Mar 2004 : 17:41:09

quote:
Originally posted by Rudolf

Does this imply that there may be 'other' forces at work at these large scales?

Yes, but I was referring to the known medium "elysium". Its constituent elysons are much larger than gravitons. Yet the role of elysium has not yet been considered in galactic dynamics.

We should develop all we can with the known mediums before we start thinking about unknown ones. -|Tom|-

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n/a

56 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2004 : 12:39:10

We will meet in another thread that black holes have much what black matter hasn't.

We arrive at black matter as... where is it. It must exist. As a state of matter. Not that we see too less gravity mass.

We are coming there with our helping tool fractality, that is not an axiom, but an open tool. Much more useful than a fixed axiom. It's dynamical.

Can you guess what our idea of Dark Matter is?

We don't need matter and anti-matter or Elysium. Higg's ideas are still only theory.

But do you like to make a try?

Ed van der Meulen

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