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EBTX
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tvanflandern
USA
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EBTX
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EBTX
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EBTX
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tvanflandern
USA
2793 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2003 : 11:30:42
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quote: Originally posted by EBTX
quote: [tvf]: As Galileo showed, the gravitational acceleration of any mass is independent of its own mass.
For small bodies this is true. However, if you drop Jupiter on the Earth it will accelerate a good deal more quickly than a bowling ball ;o)
The gravitational acceleration of any target body remains independent of a target body's own mass (m) for target bodies of any mass because the formula describes only the acceleration of the target body: GM/r^2, which is proportional only to the source mass (M).
A separate formula for the acceleration of the source mass is factored by the target body mass: Gm/r^2. The two independent acceleration formulas combined yield the total relative acceleration between any two bodies, which is equal to the sum of their individual, separate accelerations.
For studying whether the force law is inverse linear or inverse square, it is reasonable to adopt target body masses in the huge range wherein their back-acceleration on the source mass is utterly negligible and unobservable. We then plainly see the source mass field drops off with the square of distance, as does any phenomenon that spreads in two dimensions while propagating through a third, such as light intensity.
quote:
quote: [tvf]: gravitational force is an unobservable abstraction. In all astrophysical problems, we actually observe acceleration, not force.
I would say that the extent of compression of a spring would amount to the observation of force sans acceleration. Though we don't have any spring scale on the astronomical level, those at our level should be assumed to scale up.
Force is real enough and can be observed and measured for types of force other than gravity. My remark about force being unobservable was qualified to gravitational force in astrophysical problems, where we can observe only acceleration and must infer force.
quote:
quote: [tvf]: There is no "curved space" theory in existence.
In existence ... yes ... mine at least. In the literature ... unfortunately, I agree.
As MTW comment on p. 32, Riemann spent his entire life in an unsuccessful search for a curved space theory.
In general, the primary reasons for failure of such theories are: (a) Only a single curvature can be attached to a single point in space at a single instant of time. Yet bodies of different speeds passing through that point all curve by different amounts. And a taut rope passing through it is Euclidean straight. (b) A stationary body cannot be induced to commence motion by space curvature alone. An external force must act. (c) Changes of momentum require a source for the new momentum which must itself possess that momentum (i.e., must move) before it can deliver it to a target body. Curved space postulates new momentum ex nihilo, which is a miracle, forbidden in physics.
How does your theory deal with these allegedly fatal objections that stopped all attempts by the minds that preceded you?
(I trust you realize that shooting down your own theory is a good thing. The only way any of us can make real progress in understanding is by falsifying most of the great ideas that occur to us, so as to hone the possibilities for describing nature down to a few solid ones that work. Our worst enemy in achieving that goal is the tendency to fool ourselves.) -|Tom|-
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1234567890
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EBTX
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tvanflandern
USA
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1234567890
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EBTX
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Posted - 01 Dec 2003 : 15:08:23
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quote: If you don't mix up mass and weight, you can't get confused in this step.
So ... you agree that the scale would read 400 pounds in each case?
If so, we could replace the "force" of gravity with a little rocket at 400 pounds thrust on each of our masses. The acceleration produced should then be twice as great on the small mass as on the doubled mass.
But ... the flux on the smaller mass is 4 times greater on the small mass than on the original mass. And ... it's the flux which is the "rocket". This is the bone of contention. Do you see what I mean?
The problem is the flux at four fold increase. If flux just caused a genuine acceleration, it would be four times greater in the small mass than the doubled mass with a doubled flux propelling it ... not just twice the acceleration.
Or, look at it this way. You have four, 100 pound thrusters on the small mass in the halved distance scenario ... and ... two, 100 pound thrusters on the doubled mass in its scenario ... so the smaller mass will accelerate at four times the rate of the doubled mass.
Thus, an inverse square flux cannot be the "effective cause" of gravity. _______________
Or ... are you saying that the scales in each case would read something different? If so, would this not constitute a clear violation of Newton's laws? ___________________
And I agree, it is confusing. The closer you look at something, the more it tends to drip through your fingers. I am open to enlightenment ;o)
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tvanflandern
USA
2793 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2003 : 16:14:59
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quote: Originally posted by EBTX
So ... you agree that the scale would read 400 pounds in each case?
As I understand your setup, which is not well, I agree.
quote: If so, we could replace the "force" of gravity with a little rocket at 400 pounds thrust on each of our masses. The acceleration produced should then be twice as great on the small mass as on the doubled mass.
No, 200 pounds on each mass for a total of 400 pounds. The total weight measured by the scale should logocally depend on both masses, not just one of them; but it depends on how you choose to define "weight", which is ambiguous until specified. "Weight" normally has meaning only with respect to some one particular body. But if either one of the asteroids were hollow and nearly massless, the reading for the combined forces would drop from 400 to 200 pounds total.
quote: But ... the flux on the smaller mass is 4 times greater on the small mass than on the original mass. And ... it's the flux which is the "rocket". This is the bone of contention. Do you see what I mean?
Not really. But with the preceding correction, maybe it will make sense to you. If not, please try to explain your setup again, with special attention to definitions of force and weight, which are ambiguous here. I've never thought about gravity in terms of weight before because it requires a combination of a gravitational force and a non-gravitational force (e.g., a spring in the scales), and requires one to define "weight" for each application. That can get tricky because different laws apply to the non-gravitational force, and because there is no universal menaing to "weight".
If you use Newton's gravitational acceleration law, you can't go wrong because only one mass at a time is involved.
quote: The problem is the flux at four fold increase. If flux just caused a genuine acceleration, it would be four times greater in the small mass than the doubled mass with a doubled flux propelling it ... not just twice the acceleration.
I don't see why, but feel I may now have completely lost contact with your setup. One double mass means double acceleration for the other mass with no change in its own. And vice versa. So if both masses double, that gives four times the acceleration. What can be ambiguous about that?
quote: Or, look at it this way. You have four, 100 pound thrusters on the small mass in the halved distance scenario ... and ... two, 100 pound thrusters on the doubled mass in its scenario ... so the smaller mass will accelerate at four times the rate of the doubled mass.
I'm not following you at all now. I can't even guess what you might mean. Is there a typo in this last paragraph? If you meant "double" where you said "four times" in the last line, I might agree, but wonder what the question was.
quote: Thus, an inverse square flux cannot be the "effective cause" of gravity.
My failure to understand this is surely derivative from my failure to understand the preceding. But don't you have an inate sense of discomfort when you are challenging something that millions of minds before you have thought hard about over centuries and found no fault with? You are still entitled to have your questions answered. It's the presumption in your writing that you have just discovered soemthing that millions have thought hard about and not noticed before that I find ... oblivious.
Clear, unambiguous procedure:
* acceleration of body m is a1 = GM/r^2 * acceleration of body M is a2 = Gm/r^2 * total relative acceleration is a1 + a2 * total relative force depends on definition * weight depends on definition
These last two depend on whether you want the one-body force or weight (relative to which body?), or the two-body force or weight. Define your terms carefully and you can go there. Otrherwise, be safe and stick with masses and accelerations as everyone else does and no ambiguities will ever arise. -|Tom|- Esophagoplasty monoarylated superregenerator viridite renneting brioche reticulated flax colpopathy bowsaw corniche caudex anoesis embellisher xylidino?
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