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hal

16 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2003 : 02:49:51

We know that SR was based largely on Michelson-Morley (MM) experiment null result (although many consider it non-null). This type of experiment was repeated many times during the past sentury with ever increasing accuracy. The prevailing opinion is that the null result is confirmed.

Then it was the Sagnac experiment with its definitely non-null result, which caused some confusion. Very soon, however, the experiment was "incorporated" into SR, the main argument being, substantially, "what applies to pure translation, does not apply to rotation".

Well, the essential difference between the two type of experiments (apart from pure translation and rotation) is that MM type uses the two way light travel, while the Sagnac type - one way light travel.

Does anybody know about tentatives to make MM type experiment using one way light travel?

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tvanflandern

USA
2793 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2003 : 10:59:53

quote:
[hal]Does anybody know about tentatives to make MM type experiment using one way light travel?

First, Sagnac experiments are the same as MM experiments, except that they are conducted on a rotating platform. The 1925 Michelson-Gale experiment, for example, is just an MM experiment conducted on the rotating Earth, showing a non-null result (i.e., it detected Earth's rotation).

Second, *all* questions and/or doubts about earlier experimental results were put to rest by the GPS system, which has done one-way and two-way lightspeed tests every second for ten years now with 1000 times more precision, and sees no variation with direction in space, time of day, or season of the year.

In particular, the non-null Miller experiments in the 1930s were very likely the result of failing to control for atmospheric pressure variations. So today, it is widely considered that there is no controversy about experimental results, even though many who are still trying to disprove relativity do not accept that.

Meta Research's position is that both the relativity of motion and the effect of gravitational potential on clocks are well-established. However, the particular version of relativity that best describes nature is probably LR rather than SR, and the field interpretation of GR rather than its geometric interpretation. -|Tom|-

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north

Canada
518 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2003 : 12:36:11

tom

the only thing i wonder about this experiment is this,could light be to "heavy" if i can put it this way,much the same way that if i were to put a train moving at say 50,000mph throuh air would air effect it.could the mass of light relative to ether be the cause of no detectable effect.
just a thought.

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hal

16 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2003 : 13:45:50

Dear Mr. Van Flandern,

I am not trying to disprove anything, least of all chalenge theories, which, right or wrong as they may be, give, up to now, good agreements with what is observed.

I did not make comments on Miller's work - you did so, repeating somehow the Shankland and company's story - then there was the temperature, now it is the pressure, tomorrow will be something else. Miller started his work with no intention to prove or disprove anything. This note I put in memory of Dayton Miller, who was a real scientist, independently of his results which could eventually be proven to contain periodic errors of some kind, but until this is done with something else than simple suppositions, the doubt will remain.

The GPS system can hardly be considered an experiment - usually the experiments are performed to verify or falsify something. I would rather call it an application, based on SR(if we consider the Sagnac effect incorporated) and GR, which performs in good agreement with what expected.

In breaf, I was just asking about MM type experiments using different or "strange" setups - not trying to ridiculise Einstein. If somebody knows something, or is just interrested on the matter, please, let me know. [hal]

tvanflandern

USA
2793 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2003 : 14:44:30

quote:
[hal]: I did not make comments on Miller's work - you did so, repeating somehow the Shankland and company's story - then there was the temperature, now it is the pressure, tomorrow will be something else.

I know nothing of Shankland or his story. I investigated the pressure matter personally, found that it had not been controlled for, then found that normal pressure variations were quantitatively of the right size and qualitatively of the right type to explain Miller's experimental findings.

quote:
Miller started his work with no intention to prove or disprove anything. This note I put in memory of Dayton Miller, who was a real scientist, independently of his results which could eventually be proven to contain periodic errors of some kind, but until this is done with something else than simple suppositions, the doubt will remain.

I intend no criticism of Miller, but only of those who have done him a great injustice by continuing to advocate an interpretation of his results that has now been experimentally ruled out. Inasmuch as you did not mention Miller, I made no assumption about your position.

quote:
The GPS system can hardly be considered an experiment - usually the experiments are performed to verify or falsify something.

This betrays an unfortunate unfamiliarity with GPS data. I am not referring to the uses of GPS with receivers to locate positions on the Earth. These receivers are relatively crude and do not measure the speed of light, one-way or two-way. Instead, I refer to the continual dual-one-way, round-trip communications between Air Force tracking stations and GPS satellites, which take new readings roughly once per second of every day for every GPS (or GLONASS) satellite in orbit. This data is perhaps the grandest relativity experiment ever conducted, and verifies the invariance of lightspeed to the small limits I cited.

Published results by other scientists put much tighter limits on this -- They claim lightspeed is invariant to within 10 or so cm/sec. In my own analysis, I made the most pessimistic assumptions possible about systematic errors that might lie hidden in the system, and estimated more conservatively that errors up to 12 m/s might exist. But that is the outside upper limit.

quote:
I was just asking about MM type experiments using different or "strange" setups - not trying to ridiculise Einstein. If somebody knows something, or is just interested on the matter, please, let me know.

I took your message precisely that way -- as an inquiry for information. I provided some. Think about it. If the speed of propagation of the signals from GPS satellites to the ground, or the uplink speeds, varied at all, the system would give non-repeatible results for locations by the amounts of the variations, where light propagates one foot per nanosecond and GPS measures the one-way propagation times each way (ground to satellite plus satellite to ground) to a precision of one nanosecond. -|Tom|-

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tvanflandern

USA
2793 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2003 : 14:47:53

quote:
[north]could light be to "heavy" ... much the same way that if i were to put a train moving at say 50,000mph throuh air would air effect it. Could the mass of light relative to ether be the cause of no detectable effect.

The measured effect is the speed of light. It does not matter how "heavy" light is. The experiment proves its speed is invariant to 1000 times more precision than older experiments. -|Tom|-

hal

16 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2003 : 15:23:39

[hal]
Nobody puts in doubt the constancy of the speed of light, nor the first postulate (which is nothing outstanding, considering the independency on the speed of the source is a common feature for waves - example, sound waves. The speed of sound, however, depends on the speed of the medium in which it propagates - the same conjecture was made by Michelson, considering the ether as the medium for the propagation of light, and considering it immobile with respect to the Earth movement. The experiment, then, left two possibilities -1.there is no such thing like ether, 2. ether is moving together with Erath. Many texbooks describe the Michelson experiment as a tentative to prove the light speed dependant on its source speed. Michelson was not that stupid.).

The time dilation and frame contraction, predicted by SR are second order effects and become significant with speeds approaching the speed of light. There may be first order effects which cancel in two way light travel. For example, did somebody measure the time for the light travel between two immobile clocks, then between the same clocks, traveling with the same velocity (speed and direction)? [hal]

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north

Canada
518 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2003 : 15:43:53

tom

its not the speed of light that i was getting at but it's ability to go "through" ether with out being affected because of it's mass relative to ether.ether being so "thin" persay would not affect it,therefore would not affect light moving through it.

tvanflandern

USA
2793 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2003 : 16:01:59

quote:
[north]its not the speed of light that i was getting at but it's ability to go "through" ether with out being affected because of it's mass relative to ether.ether being so "thin" persay would not affect it,therefore would not affect light moving through it.

The primary reason to postulate an ether was to have a medium for light to propagate through because of its numerous wave properties that cannot be emulated by particles. So classical ether is the medium for light, and light consists of waves in that medium. -|Tom|-

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tvanflandern

USA
2793 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2003 : 16:11:31

quote:
[hal]: The [MM] experiment, then, left two possibilities:
-1. there is no such thing like ether,
-2. ether is moving together with Earth.

Modern experiments have answered. The local gravitational potential field serves as the "preferred frame" in which light propagates. So choice #2 is correct.

quote:
did somebody measure the time for the light travel between two immobile clocks, then between the same clocks, traveling with the same velocity (speed and direction)?

There are ground clocks all over Earth traveling with different rotational speeds from zero to 0.5 km/s. There are GPS satellites in lots of different orbital planes that were once on the ground, then launched into orbits with relative speeds of about 3 km/s. So one gets all combinations of relative speeds at different times.

Other modern experiments allow us to see variations in Earth's best clocks caused by orbital and rotational motions, because they can now be compared with distant pulsar clocks of even higher precision that do not share any local motions.

The precision of experiments has advanced greatly over the last two generations. -|Tom|-

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north

Canada
518 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2003 : 17:43:08

tom

the classical use,of ether for light propagation i feel could be used to do so much more,essence matter perhaps.

by the way i just read in STEVEN RADO'S book that ether was confirmed,by the MICHELSON-MORLEY experiment,what do you think!

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north

Canada
518 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2003 : 17:56:52

tom

sorry this was JAMES CLERK MAXWEL that did this, and supposedly mathematically.

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