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Gravity and red shift?

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Gordonh1

USA
4 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2003 : 04:04:08

I found myself wondering the other day about strong gravity fields possibly having some effect on redshift.

In a strong gravity field, we know that clocks will be slowed down. Wouldn't light emitted from these slower areas be redshifted? Any influence on time should also affect frequency, right? Could this explain the intrinsic redshift associated with quasars? Could the approximate mass of the quasar be estimated from its intrinsic redshift (if the intrinsic redshift were known apart from its Doppler redshift?)

I'm not a physicist (my background is in chemistry), so please set me straight if I'm off track here. I'm trying to understand the theories of Arp and others, having read Seeing Red, and I found myself wondering about gravitational fields' effect on red shift.

It seems that, if there were such a gravitational redshift effect, it should be readily measureable in the spectra of the Sun and stars.

Gordon

Gordon J. Hogenson

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Jeremy

USA
284 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2003 : 18:36:35

Gravity does indeed redshift light and it is measureable, there are numerous astronomy books dealing with it. Quasars are difficult to interpret since there is controversy over how far away they actually are.

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AgoraBasta

Russia
234 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2003 : 19:05:28

Gordon, that's a well known effect.

The general formula is f₁/f₂=

(g_00;2/g_00;1), g₀₀ is the time component of the metric tensor.

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Gordonh1

USA
4 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2003 : 21:04:22

Thanks for your responses. In due course, I found that there was a famous experiment, the Pound-Rebka experiment done in 1959 at Harvard in which the effect was measured using laser beams.

I also found some discussion saying that Hoyle had sought to explain the redshift of quasar 3C 273 in terms of a gravtitational redshift. However, it seems that the idea was abandoned.

It would be interesting to take one of Arp's systems where there's a gas connection between the quasar and a galaxy, and assume that the galaxy has a distance redshift equal to the galaxy it's connected to. We could then take the remaining redshift to be an intrinsic gravitational redshift...

Gordon

Gordon J. Hogenson

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Jim

1607 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2003 : 16:49:59

Gorden, Have you found any data that indicates quasars are near the galaxies in the field they are often found around? I am always asking about this and no one seems to have any idea. As for gravity redshift I suspect the Hubble redshift is caused by the total gravity of the universe and should be stated as ~one nanometer per second per second rather than as it is stated.

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Jeremy

USA
284 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2003 : 17:04:19

It was my understanding that it is Arp's claim that quasars are often directly associated with the galaxies they appear next to. He has supplied numerous examples of quasars with apparent streams of material connecting to a nearby galaxy that has a vastly different redshift. His book "Seeing Red" is devoted to this very topic.

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Gordonh1

USA
4 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2003 : 03:49:52

Yes, "Seeing Red" by Halton Arp has the info on many systems where associations between low redshift galaxies and high redshift quasars are seen:

Markarian 474/NGC5682 and Quasar BSO1
Separation: 1.6 arcmin
Probability: 5 x 10^-3

NGC4651 and Quasar 3C275.1
Separation: 3.5 arcmin
Probability: 3 x 10^-3

NGC3067 and Quasar 3C232
Separation: 1.9 arcmin
Probability: 3 x 10^-4

NGC5832 and Quasar 3C309.1
Separation: 6.2 arcmin
Probability: 7x10^-4

NGC4319 and Quasar Markarian 205
Separation: 0.7 arcmin
Probability: 2 x 10^-5

That's from a table on page 23 of Seeing Red. The book goes into detail, showing plates that reveal that not only are the galaxies associated with the quasars, but that the quasars are connected via X-ray emitting jets to the centers of these galaxies.

Can you explain the idea about redshift being caused by the total gravity of the universe? That's the first I've heard of that idea.

Gordon J. Hogenson

Jim

1607 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2003 : 19:06:43

The Hubble redshift is a result of gravity in my opinion rather than recessional velocity as is generally assumed. This is an idea I'm working on and nothing more than that. But, it would still be much better to scale the Hubble Constant to SI units as this would alter the way math is done in BB theory. The use of "H" in calculating the parameters of the universe would not be useful if SI scale was used.

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markV

United Kingdom
1 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2003 : 09:43:16

Another angle proposed by Arp on this subject is the relationship between redshifted light and the creation of zero-mass new matter, which, in due time, acquires mass. Thus 'young' objects, including many quasars, display an intrinsic redshift based on their immature matter mass. As the objects mature, their measured redshift reduces - the logical deduction being that distant objects display huge redshift values because we are observing them as young objects, not because they are receding at near-c speeds.

This assumption seems to have come about for the abundant evidence of matter ejection from AGN's and seyferts.

hal

16 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2003 : 10:29:31

Gordon,

Moessbauer made his famous experiment in the late sixties which proves the light redshift due to Earth gravitational field. The accuracy of the experiment is impressive.

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